teaching/sermons/col-1-15-20/expansion/icoc_alpha_omega/clean/07-christ-vs-philosophy-part-2-john-oaks.md

Christ Vs Philosophy Part 2 | John Oaks

Col 1:15-20 prep relevance: RELEVANT

Why kept: Entire session built around Col 2:8 — "Christ vs philosophy" — as the anchor against modernism, postmodernism, progressive theology. Direct sustained engagement with the Col 2 warning against hollow philosophy and elemental forces. Worldview frame for the hymn's polemic.

Key excerpts:

00:00:01 Yeah, thanks. [Music] >> Okay, I promised I would take a few more questions before I continue with material. So, we had at least three people had already I already acknowledged. So, let's do that questions. >> Yes. >> Come on, John. >> Right. I think the the the question is if we acknowledge that

00:00:32 these philosophies are not a thing to live by and yet they can be helpful in certain ways, how do we find the balance there of of being aware of whether we're living by that as opposed to just having it as a tool essentially? And I think you answered your own question by the way you asked it. It's a matter of self-awareness. We just have to remain self-aware. You know, I interact with a lot of atheists and I, you know, stuff in my website, all kind of stuff. And and people have these uh assumptions.

00:01:05 They they work on presuppositions. And all of us have presuppositions. That's called a worldview. We all have a world view. But I think training ourselves to be aware of what our perspective is and training ourselves to be aware of how those things affect us. I mean so all social media is just all trying to influence you correct >> and and so we have to tr and young people it's really really important to train yourself to ask the right

00:01:35 questions to ask yourself how is this influencing me and you just have to keep coming back to Christ I don't have a really awesome answer to your question but it it comes we have to bring ourselves back to Christ we have to keep doing that and and learn how to have what some people call the balcony perspective. A ability to step back even from your Christianity, even from the Bible and look at it and understand

00:02:05 what's really going on there from an outside perspective. So, for example, I I assume many of you are involved in in helping with environmental causes. Great. All right. But if you immerse yourself into environmentalism, it is a way of life. It is a philosophy and so I think just the key thing is being self-aware. Okay. And that's that's a skill that's acquired. A lot of people are so one of

00:02:35 one of the students came about talked to me about her parents I know very well and I I explained to her I love her parents so much but they're not particularly self-aware and it's a problem. Okay. They they have a very very very strong perspective. I respect it and I appreciate it, but I I shake my head sometimes. And Christians often are not nearly self-aware enough. Start young. Okay, next. These are question people I

00:03:05 acknowledged earlier just out of fairness. And okay, you're okay. Good. Okay, he's asking, "Is this going to be something that can help us in evangelism?" I I think yes. I mean, it's not the most obvious thing. The main thing that's going to help you with evangelism is the Holy Spirit and your zeal and your conviction. Those are the main things. But I I I think we live in a post-Christian age as you know and therefore being aware of different worldview perspectives and able to

00:03:38 discuss them is very helpful. I I just published a book recently. Uh it's called good uh what's the name of my good uh I forget the name of my book. It's a great book. I forget the name. Uh that's so funny. It's on worldview and it's it's an attempt to fairly deal with questions about worldview. And on campus today, you you at some point you

00:04:08 need to you you don't need to know just all the trash about Islam. You need to understand Islam and why people why people are attracted. There's a reason people are attracted to Islam. All right? And so I don't think this is the main thing in your evangelism. I think it's a little side thing to be good at. Uh what first Peter 3, all be always be prepared to give an answer to anyone who ask you to give a reason for the hope you have. So I wouldn't say that's the main thing. I think the main thing is just the Holy Spirit being in Christ, your zeal, your love for God, and just

00:04:39 your life. Your life is worth more than being able to answer these questions. But yeah, I'd say this is 10%. >> Okay. There's a third person who who had raised their hand. I acknowledge at least. Then there's a fourth person who said, "Can you please take me before you start again?" >> Okay. Great. >> Um you had in the previous session you had mentioned like some personal opinions that you had. You said that there was some thingsism had overism. >> You also said you had if if you were

00:05:11 given a choice, you would look at things from a postmodern view instead of modern view. >> Good. felt almost like kind of contrary, you know, I just wanted you to elaborate a little bit more on what you meant by that. And >> I So, yeah, first of all, I I said if I absolutely had to choose, which I don't, and I can't help it. All right, but I I'm I'm that's going to be the part of this lesson. I'm going about the the strengths and weaknesses of the postmodern perspective, and I hope it'll be an honest look at that. And it you

00:05:44 can judge for yourself if it seems unbalanced. There's more positives than negatives. You can decide for yourself. Okay. But as far as Catholicism versus Protestantism, I said something that's a little bit provocative there honestly. And to be honest with it was provocative somewhat on purpose. All right. I said essentially that if I had to choose between Protestantism and Catholicism, I I might struggle to know because the bottom line is uh the the

00:06:15 pro I'm talking about the Protestant Reformation. I'm talking about what Zwingley, Calvin, and Luther did and John Knox and all those other that I'm talking about historically that thing that went on there. And then so the the this has nothing to do with our topic this morning, but it's a great question. Okay. So, the the Protestant church did a lot to return Christianity to Christian practice, but they didn't do us any favors in terms of theology. It wasn't an

00:06:45 improvement. All right? So, they brought us total depravity, unconditional election, Calvinism, once saved always saved, you know, easy all this stuff that we struggle with, all this false theology. I've had many debates with with Catholics and say, "You Protestants this, you Protestants that." And I 80% of what they're criticizing I agree with them on. And then there's the other 20%. There's a lot of stuff over there. You know what I'm saying? But uh yeah, the

00:07:15 whole idea that I think evangelicalism creates the general perspective, those Catholics, they're way over there and we're way closer. I just don't agree with that. >> Okay. >> Um >> Yeah. No, actually you're the one that Okay, great question. But >> yeah, is it all right if I >> Yeah, go ahead. >> Okay. Um, yeah. So, I was just kind of thinking and reflecting. Um, because like you talked about how Christ is supreme. Uh, and so being in Christ is the answer to all things. Um, it's the

00:07:45 answer to the moral and philosophical and spiritual teachings. >> Absolutely. >> Past and present. >> Um, >> absolutely. >> And so that could be used as a framework to kind of reject anything we hear. Um, like for example, we could use it to just reject the whole Old Testament. Um, and so obviously that's not where we're going, right? Because you said >> not even close. >> Nailed these to the cross. That doesn't reject them. It just means that we need to be in Christ. And so I guess I'm kind of wondering interrupt you there. What what was nailed to the cross was not the

00:08:16 Old Testament or the law of Moses. It was the the indebtedness. >> That's what was nailed to the cross. And the problem with the Old Covenant, it didn't solve that problem. Yeah. So I used to actually teach essentially that he was nailing kind of the old covenant to the cross. That's not what he's doing. He's nailing that indebtedness. >> All right. >> And the pro and Galatians, I mean, and and Colossians as well it is saying that the Old Testament didn't solve that problem. >> Yeah.

00:08:46 >> All right. Anyway, go ahead. >> Yeah, thanks for clarifying that. I definitely want to make sure because being on the same page is important on something. Um, and so I guess my wonder is like now that we kind of have a framework where we can we can kind of tear down philosophies of the world, including ancient ones and present ones. Uh, I want to know kind of how do we build from there? Um, and and I guess we'll learn a little bit more of some things to reject. >> And again, I I'm not sure we need to tear down those philosophies. We just need to reveal them for what they are and then not become enslaved to them.

00:09:16 >> Yeah. My goal here is this morning is not to necessar I might have been using language that sounded like that and even Paul might use language that sounds like that. The goal is not to tear down the philosophy. The goal is to build up Christ. >> And again uh like like was said we can even borrow and learn. We can borrow and learn from we can learn from Zoastrians. We can learn from we can even learn from anybody. >> Yeah. But as long as Christ is at the center of what we're doing, I think

00:09:47 we'll probably be okay. Then if our parents are criticizing us for going way off over here, you know, as long as we're in Christ, as long as Christ is at the center, we're probably going to be okay. Okay? Right? So if I came across like my goal is to tear down these philosophies, okay? Then then I blew it or I made a mistake. I my goal is to lift up Christ. >> Yeah. >> And then these philosophies become what

00:10:18 they are which is nothing. >> Except in Christ they could be something right. I mean you have a car. What's a car? Nothing. But in Christ a car is an instrument used to help somebody to go to heaven you know. So anything you know almost anything that is bad outside of Christ. Many of those things are perfectly fine. But we just have to find a way to to accept Paul's perspective that these are stokea. These are ABCs. They sound so smart, so intelligent, and but they're just

00:10:49 outside of Christ, they're really have no value. >> Because I guess so, one thing I've heard before, which I have a hard time with, is the idea that like social and racial justice outside of Christ aren't good. Because they are >> they are very good. embodies it every day. >> If you remove the idea of social justice from the Bible, you have you're removing a massive I mean just look at Luke 4. Jesus came and he he said I'm the here's what I'm fulfilling. It's Isaiah 62

00:11:21 verse 1 and two you know uh freedom for the captive uh you know for the poor and all. I mean if you take social justice out of Christianity what do you have? And the way I explained it to the church in Merced, I said, "These things that we do, these the this is not what we do. This is who we are." >> All right? And I I understand there's been my generation, it's sad and it's embarrassing. And even some younger people, but mainly

00:11:52 have this whole negative reaction against social justice thing. I have to be careful even to say the phrase social justice in my own church. That's that's terrible. >> But again, uh these things, this is what Christ did. I mean, teaching, healing, and and yeah, but again, uh finding meaning and purpose through social justice. No, it's it's

00:12:22 through Christ. >> If there's anything that's close to, you know, that's what if we find it in Christ, it would be that. I suppose that it's hard to imagine anything closer to Christlikkeness than these kinds of things that we do. But we need to remember these things are not creating righteousness. They're not even creating justice per se because justice is found in Christ. But that so much of what Jesus did, I mean,

00:12:52 we're doing a study in Isaiah right now. If you get away from the idea of social justice, I mean, you're so far away from Christ. >> All right. I'm I'm going to get in big trouble. I'm about the two political parties. I'm just going to do it. I'm just getting in so much trouble for Okay. So, if you're if you're a Republican, you think that you morality is the most important thing >> and moral stuff. If you're a Democrat, you think that social justice is the

00:13:22 most important thing. >> All right. So, which did Jesus emphasize more? >> Morality or social justice? >> I'm not even going to answer that question. >> See, that way I can't get in trouble because I didn't answer the question. All right. So, let's get back to our class. >> All right. So again about again I'm talking about us old folks and how we think and you

00:13:55 got to kind of understand how we think and we we may frustrate you but how we think is not worse than how you think. It's definitely different though. So the enlightenment you know Voltaare and Rouso and all these guys they s they taught that using reason we can ask and answer all important questions. The ultimate decider of what is true is whether it's rational and reasonable. And I already pointed out there's things in Christianity that are not reasonable.

00:14:28 >> All right? They're not reasonable. My generation struggles with that. In fact, aspects of Christianity that aren't reasonable, we we struggle with. That's why did you know not not in our church I say no but church of Christ they they basically relegate the Holy Spirit to inspiring the scripture and that's the only role that he had. >> Wow. And that's my generation. But we've made some great progress in that area by the way. >> Anyway, they evaluate the role of

00:14:58 elevates the role of the individual in the value of personal freedom. John Lock. All right. Right. Life, liberty, and I got you on that one. Property. That's what he actually said. But I mean that that's the the value of the individual human rights. Where did that come from? It came from the Bible. All right. It's it's it's the Bible. Christianity is where slavery was eliminated. It's where women's rights were beginning to be recognized and all this sort of stuff. However, the

00:15:29 modernists took that as everything. You know what I'm saying? All right. And so this had a huge impact on Christianity. Much for good and also much for bad. So we have to talk about that. So the the the classic modernist kind of church is the church of Christ, the restoration movement, the Stone Campbell movement, which is where you all came from. No, your church did not start in the Gimple's living room, but that's a joke for my generation. You

00:15:59 know, you guys know that. You guys smarter than that. All right. So, Alexander Campbell, what a what an amazing guy. The a biography of him came out a few years ago, about four or five years ago. It is awesome. You should read that biography. Anyway, he he kind of he created this idea that all important questions can be answered using the Bible and using deductive and inductive approaches to answering those questions. That's crazy. That's not true. So basically he tried to

00:16:30 scientifically analyze the Bible. So this is great. This is really awesome on doctrine. So many important biblical doctrines were essentially rediscovered by these guys. It's awesome. The legacy of the of the Stone Campbell movement is something to be proud of but also embarrassed of sometimes. Okay. It's it's a mixture. So weak on principles. All right. So they would say, this is a big church thing, command, example,

00:17:01 necessary demonstration. And they would say, um, you know, speak where the Bible speaks and silent where the Bible's silent, all that kind of stuff. Very, very strongly doctrally oriented. You know, that thing, uh, life and doctrine, church, Christ. I'm exaggerating. I'm exaggerating. Okay. So that's that's our background and you guys can help us out there, okay? You really can. But

00:17:34 we need good sound doctrine. And honestly, you guys are probably going to suck at that to some extent unless you're careful. I'm just telling you, okay? Be self-aware. All right. All right. The characteristics of a modernist church stresses doctrine over practice. All right. uh either or approach to truth. There's there's gray areas are really hard to handle there. Stresses individuality over corporate aspects.

00:18:08 All right? And so in a modernist church when you have the Lord's supper, you sit there with your by yourself with your little bread and your little juice and it's just you and God and it's like there's nobody else there in the room. That's the way we do the Lord's supper. It's like 20 273 people individually having relationship with God and there's almost no corporate aspect of the way we do the Lord's supper. That's a modernist church. By the way, in our church, what we do is we have a table and we stand around the table and we actually look at each other when we're taking the Lord's

00:18:39 supper. So, by the way, Pierce, we're weird. We're we're strange. You didn't you didn't know that. But, all right. The modernist believes if you have the correct belief then eventually have the correct practice. Okay, that's just what that's how we think approach Christianity. We reject superstition. We minimize the miraculous anything mysticism and Holy Spirit kind of stuff like the Holy Spirit told me,

00:19:09 "Oh, we we we're very very uncomfortable with that." Okay, got it. Okay. more sectarian. In other words, we're we're we're more we struggle to unite with people who disagree with us. >> The modernist very divisive. All right, that's the bad. >> We're less ecumenical. But on the other hand, having that separate thing kind of it's safe at least, you know, there's there's good and bad there. Okay. um

00:19:41 because we um we're less ecumenical because of the influence of this idea of propositional truth. All right. To us, the Bible is a list of truths. To you, the Bible is a story. Okay? To I'm oversimplifying in order to help you out. Guys, you understand that, right? You you understand I'm doing a lot of exaggerating here, but it's help. Okay? To us, the Bible is a is a is a list of doctrines. To y'all, the Bible

00:20:12 is a story. I much prefer the second one. >> I much prefer to think of the Bible as a story because it is. But it does have propositional truth. I finished my master's degree. It was it was uh through a Church of Christ thing. It's a great program, but they told us there's no no propositional truth in the Bible at all. How about in the beginning was the word was with God and the word was God. To me, that's just true. I'm You know what I'm saying? So, emphasis on

00:20:42 preaching more than worship. And our church overemphasizes preaching over worship. And you guys can correct that. Thank you. Please do. Please do. All right. The the way the way of Calvinism and and reformed theology was described as four walls in a sermon. They they reduce Christianity to four walls in a sermon. So, but that's modernism worship, which is experience. We we we're we're kind of skeptical of

00:21:12 experience. You guys can help us out there. The modernist church relies on evidence and logic and reasoning. The kind of Christian evidences that I kind of did for 20 or 30 years, it barely even works with your gener. It does work some. So worldview stuff is much more useful for you guys than just a bunch of facts and evidence that all right now I'm going to become a Christian because this prophecy got fulfilled. All right. It relies on

00:21:42 evidence, a stronger emphasis on verbal inspiration of the Bible. Bible. Bible. Bible. Bible. And by the way, yeah, I agree with that. But we can be a little bit overly biblicist and unable to gain information from other places in ways that can be helpful. Okay. The ICO is a modernist, not a postmodern church movement, which obviously is going to be changing, but let's change it wisely. Let's listen to those old fogies,

00:22:14 okay? Please, please. I wasn't looking at you on purpose during that one. We we had a nice conversation earlier this modernism is not dead. It's still here very much so. But World War I, World War II, Hiroshima, it kind of caused at least intellectuals to go, "Wow, that because the modernist said we're getting better and better and better. We're going to have more and more truth, better knowledge." You know the secular humanist idea is totally found in

00:22:46 modernism despite the fact that the Christianity can be also modernist. All right. But then you know other worldviews like the Hinduism and Buddhism and began to influence American thinking and and and besides we're not getting better and better. We just started murdering each other. How many people got killed in World War II? And we're starting to build bombs and can destroy everything. So some people thought, man, we got to swing the pendulum in the opposite direction. So we went from a very very optimistic worldview. The the modernist view is

00:23:18 very optimistic to a very pessimistic worldview. Okay? Which says nothing is true. You can't believe anything anymore. Okay? I'm not going to go into niche and all that kind of stuff. God is dead. Truth dependent on language. All that stuff. correspondence theory of truth. The correspondence theory of truth says if if if the things which are consistent with the reality are true, things that don't agree with the reality are not true, that's replaced in postmodernism.

00:23:49 Uh Martin Haidiger, FCO, all right, postmodern thinking, postmodernisms, postmodernists have no worldview except the view that there is no correct worldview. It's the it's the worldview that there is no correct worldview, that everybody's right and everybody's wrong at the same time. very confusing. In postmodernism, truth is found by the community that accept that thing as true. And in a hyper sort of compartmentalized social media setting,

00:24:20 postmodernism is uh very easily found there. I guess postmodernism rejects ontological truth and meta narratives. In other words, it accepts that relativism, relativism is the correct way of seeing things. True for you, but not true from you. For me, the goal of postmodernism is to deconstruct beliefs such as the Bible to destroy its violent

00:24:51 meta narratives. Right? These are truths that over overlay any kind of narrative that those fundamental truths to make these truths these these old-fashioned ways of thinking to meaningless. Okay, I'm I'm doing the negative part, but I'm going to do the positive part. Don't worry. Postmoderns preference to uniformity, right? >> Yeah. Absolutely. I love it. Honestly,

00:25:21 I'm not being sarcastic. I'm not being sarcastic, okay? They uh postmodernists prefer heterogeneity to homogeneity, right? And so a postmodern Asian restaurant is Thai, Chinese, Indian, uh what that's a joke. You're supposed to laugh, but you're not laughing cuz well, obviously to to my generation, why would you want to have a restaurant that has both Japanese and Chinese in the same?

00:25:52 Why would you want to even do that? But then we go there and eat the food. Oh, never mind. It's okay. Postmoderns prefer the local to the universal, right? You know, think globally but act locally. Postmoderns value the community over the individual. By the way, yes. Yes. Postmodernism. Postmodernist is not searching for truth but collecting

00:26:22 experiences. That is you guys so much. Oh my goodness. If you haven't posted on Facebook, it didn't even happen. You know what I'm saying? Now, is that good or bad? Um, postmodernist is not searching for truth, but collecting experiences. H, what do you think? Uh, my generation says that's stupid. and ridiculous. Uh we we look down on that, you know, and we laugh at that. I'll let you decide if that's good or bad. Uh current pop culture is a reflector of postmodern

00:26:52 thinking. Totally. Postmodern values. Above all, diversity and tolerance, right? Is Christianity a tolerant religion? Boy, that is such a fraught question. That is such a fraud question. The moderates would say absolutely not. And they're right. Right. Jesus said, "No one comes to the father except through me." >> Okay. But is are Christians tolerant? Well, that's such that's such a fraught question. The answer is in some I mean

00:27:24 absolutely in certain ways. But this idea of tolerance as a religion because in postmodernism tolerance is essentially a religion. It is the religion of postmodernism. So that's the problem. All right. Strengths. Okay. strengths, celebrates cultural and other kinds of diversity. Praise God. Open-minded, which is good unless your brains fall out because you're so open-minded. Tolerant generally, but not always a good thing.

00:27:55 Being tolerant is usually good. Pierce, you and I have had those discussions, right? We had a little to-do with a a brother in the church who wasn't tolerant and that was that was not good. It wasn't in fact it he almost didn't get baptized because of that. Okay. So that so open-minded and tolerant. I'm going to call those things good. Okay. A more accurate view of history. I mean because

00:28:25 the the the modernist looks at everything through a western perspective which is so limited. It's so sad. Open to Easter and other ways of thinking. That's good, by the way. Not married to Western as the only good way of thinking. Celebrates relationship and community. Refuts the false and prideful claims of modernism, especially the idea that humans are getting better and better. So that's good. You guys can help us out in all those areas. That's my opinion. Okay. Weaknesses. Okay.

00:28:56 Sorry. Get on to that. denies the existence of propositional truth. All right. When I mean I don't know. Let's let's check it out. Let's see here. I don't know how many people don't do we have any people in here that don't believe in gravity. If we have enough people that don't believe in gravity, then they're all right. I'm I'm sorry. Science is on to something. Science is on to something. All right.

00:29:26 denies the existence of absolute truth when truth is very real. 2 plus 2 is four in every universe. All right. Its most basic premise which is truth is relative is simply not true. You say to the postmoders, are you absolutely sure that nothing is absolutely true? There you go. All right. Circular reasoning. And it's very difficult to find a moral compass. So morality moral questions that are biblical ones are difficult to maintain

00:29:58 in a postmodern perspective and that's a problem. That's a problem. Okay, that's a problem for you guys and just understand that. Okay, accepting that it's wrong. It is wrong to have homosexual relationships. It is wrong to take the life of your child. These things are wrong.

00:30:28 Okay, that's that's tough for you guys. It's not tough for my guys and we can do it. We we tend to be very harsh. We're harsh about it and unloving about it. It's it's so sad. All right. But all right, dismiss the role of the revolutionary because it in postmodernism the person who says y'all are wrong. That's the bad person. That's the that's the bad person. So think about the social revolutionaries like

00:30:58 Gandhi. Oh Jesus, right? So the social revolutionary is problematic in postmodernism. Okay. Bottom line is Christianity includes propositional truth. Your word is truth. to postmodernist there's no center there's no meta narrative in Christianity Jesus is the center and he is the meta narrative however postmodism can be a helpful

00:31:28 critique to the modernist approach to scripture however it tends to reject the idea that scripture has a single interpretation in some cases when second Peter 1:21 says yes it does Okay. Strengths of postmodernism for Christianity allows us to recognize that in Christianity, which is not strictly rational. Much better at that. Much better at handing the idea of the Holy Spirit and and gray areas and the fact that things

00:31:58 are not as simple as you thought. helps us to appreciate the mysterious in Christianity >> to experience Christ to to you know the whole spiritual transformation stuff that Robert Kio would do is great stuff helps us to recognize that much of what we call Christianity is really just Americanity and we we can look at how much Americanism has invaded Christianity. You guys are going to do a much better

00:32:28 job of recognizing that and rejecting it. Helpful in hermeneutics to represent to recognize the influence of culture in worldview on scripture. Riley points out the modernist ideal to discovering universal truth through rational analysis is not realistic. This helps us to be less judgmental. You guys are so much less judgmental and praise the Lord for that. Again, as a stereotype, right? There's truth there. helps us to celebrate the communal

00:32:58 aspects of Christianity and to defeat the hyperindividualism in the church. Helps us to remember the need to do social good to help and be involved in community. If I want to get somebody to be interested in church, I tell them we do community service. Boom. Oh, I hate Christianity, but I want to come to your stuff because you guys serve the community. That's your generation. And praise the Lord. Don't lose it and don't let us stop you. It's eclectic. The postmodern church is more open to a wide variety of ideas and

00:33:29 beliefs. Is that good or bad? Right there. Is that good or bad? It's a mixed bag. Okay. It's Thank you. It's like that. Okay. More interested in community and relationships than individual faith. Good or bad? >> Good. All right. More socially aware, more oriented towards social justice. Good or bad? >> Good. Less interested in doctrine. Good or bad? bad. Okay, just recognize it.

00:33:59 >> Just recognize that and you'll probably be okay. You can swim through this pool. Watch your life postmodernism and your doctrine modernism closely. Persevere in them for if you do so, you'll save both yourself and your ears. Okay. Uh let me see. I've got about another 15 minutes and then we'll take some more questions. So, I'm going to do a very brief thing on the whole idea of progressive theology. Okay. Uh Darren Overreet wrote a book on this.

00:34:29 It was um you might want to get a copy of his book. He he goes a little bit farther over there than I would honestly, but I appreciate his perspective there. I I it basically wrote a book against all the progressive this that and the other thing. All right. I asked him, "So what's your definition of progressive theology?" And he said, "I never thought about that." Okay, Darren, you probably should have. So I I because he invited me to his church to do some some teaching on this and I thought you know what maybe I

00:34:59 should figure that out. So I want I want to distinguish three different things. Progressive politics from progressive thinking from progressive theology. Progressive politics you know progressive thinking progressive theology bad. Okay. So, I want to talk about those three things. All right, I got to switch my notes here. Okay, progressive politics. I'm just going to give my own

00:35:30 definition of progressive politics. It's the politics of the leftwing in America and European and Europe. It emphasizes unions, minorities, the poor, and intellectual liberalism. It supports social programs, minority rights, immigrants, and liberal attitudes on social and moral issues. Okay, that's that's progressive politics. Now, you could be completely

00:36:00 conservative in your politics and be absolutely a Christian. Okay? The young generation, I think, lean a little bit more towards this end, but not all of them, not even close to all of them. So the progressive politics I'm going to say is neither good nor bad except it's politics. Politics is always bad but never mind. Okay. Then there's progressive thinking. A progressive philosophy. This is sometimes known as secular humanism.

00:36:32 And it's the idea that humans are getting better and better that we're progressing over time. By the way, this progressive thinking has influenced Christianity in as I'll talk about progressive theology. Anything which is older is almost by definition worse. So, you know, the the the um monarchy is bad and conservative morality is bad, authority in general is bad, including religious authority. They're all bad

00:37:02 because they're all old-fashioned and you know the the uh Yeah. Anyway, this this thinking is willing to be spiritual but not tied down to religious authority. Then there's progressive theology. Again, this is just my definition. By the way, I'm only going to be talking for another 10 minutes. I guess just and then we'll take questions. The idea that Christianity needs to progress. The idea that the Bible itself, at least in some ways, is outdated.

00:37:33 Okay, these ideas are out there and floating amongst our churches. Okay, it undermines the idea of the authority of the Bible. Clear statements in the New Testament must be interpreted in light of culture. By the way, we need to understand culture to interpret the Bible. >> All right? Because if you don't allow culture to help you interpret the Bible, you're going to go some pretty crazy places. you know, long hair for a guy

00:38:03 would be a sin and short hair for a girl would be a sin. But that's not true looking at a guy with long hair. All right? So, you know, you if you look at if you don't look at say 1 Corinthians 11 through a cultural lens, you're going to make some stupid mistakes. >> All right? But progressive theology gives precedent to to culture as in as if culture can interpret anything. All right. But I'm sorry, but to

00:38:33 therefore that women and men are exactly the same. There's absolutely no dis difference at all. I I think that's part of progressive theology where it's going to be taking us. That's just my thinking anyway. All right. There's this idea that esquetology influences our hermeneutics. Oh, those are two really, really big words. All right. esquetology, which is end times, you know, anticipating the

00:39:03 kingdom of God, end times in heaven. So, basically, because we think that's what heaven is going to be like, then we can look through that lens and reinterpret the Bible through that lens. But I don't think that's safe. That's progressive theology. Because you know, by the way, there there is such a thing as even God's progressive revelation. In other words, God said to the Jews, you could actually do a divorce under these situations

00:39:34 because of your hardness of heart. He said to us, no, you can't. So there progressive revelation is a reality. But here's what's not changing. God is not changing. >> His scripture is not changing. >> Does God change? Does he change his mind? >> Abraham. >> Trick question. Abraham, right? Sodom thing.

00:40:04 >> In fact, when you pray for something, aren't you asking God to change his mind? Sort of. In a way, kind of. Sort of. Depends how you I like that. Sort of. Kind of. Sort of. But God does not change and his word does not change and the meaning of his word does not change with time. >> All right? So, progressive theology is kind of trying to take us in the direction where we can reinterpret it in and we kind of assuming, oh, yeah, sure, that's where God was in, you know, 37

00:40:36 AD, but now he's probably not really there anymore. Does Does Christianity progress? Well, Christians make progress. you better be making progress. But Christianity is not progressing. Christianity is not progressing. So progressive theology in general undermines the authority of the Bible and even to some extent undermines the authority of God. All right? So it it it it reads

00:41:06 discoveries by humans back into the scripture. It tends to do that. All right. Some have called Paul a misogynist. Okay. Paul is not a mis misogynist. He is not. And God certainly is not. Okay. And some have said that Paul supports the patriarchy. Okay. Paul does not support the

00:41:37 patriarchy. Does he make statements that could lead you to think in some ways that he is? Maybe. You have to think about that. All right. So, but people who are saying these things are trying to undermine your faith in the scriptures and it's not true. Or put it this way, maybe Paul did have a little misogyny in them, but it didn't slip into the scriptures. That doesn't happen.

00:42:08 There's no mistakes in the Bible. Oh, yes, there are. For example, the guy in in in John nine who said, "We know that God doesn't listen to unbelievers." But that's because some pagan guy is saying that and it's not true. I mean, God does listen to unbelievers. He does. So, but I shouldn't have even gone into that direction. But so, what about progress? Is progress bad? No. What is progressive theology? It undermines the idea of absolute truth and absolute morality. And honestly,

00:42:38 that is coming out of postmodernism to some extent. It implies the Bible is sufficiently ambiguous that it must be reinterpreted according to current human thinking. So much of God's truth is delivered through narrative. That's true. But there are propositional truths. There are things the Bible says are wrong and they've remained wrong. And there'll be if God wants to change that some late some sometime later down the road let him do that but not us. All right. So

00:43:10 there is propositional truth in the Bible. The postmodern take on that is I believe not correct and you have to decide whether you agree with me on that or not. Human progress is not evil or even to be opposed by Christian. Unfortunately some Christians have done that. Not you all, but my generation have tended to do that sometimes. Oh, sorry about the the All right. Where did science come from? It came from Christianity. Where did the end of slavery come from? It came from

00:43:40 Christianity. Where did the very idea of human rights come from? It came from human from Christianity. Where did the idea that women have equal dignity to some extent to the extent that we actually accept that it came from the way Jesus treated women? All right. And even Christianity has progressed on those issues. So progress is not the problem. And y'all can help us make progress. Please do.

00:44:10 But don't have a progressive thinking about the Bible. All right? Because the Bible doesn't progress. God has not changed. The Bible's not going to change. You know, again, at the end of time, if God says, "Yeah, that's what I meant for the time, but I've got something different now." Amen. Let God do that. But let's not do that. That's not our place to replace God. What about deconstruction? That's the whole thing. Well, depends on what you mean by deconstruction. All right. If it means trying to understand why we've been doing these

00:44:41 things all along and and and then holding them up against the Bible, questioning what you've been taught, that's good. We need that >> that kind of deconstruction. Please do that. But don't deconstruct the Bible. Don't deconstruct Jesus. Don't deconstruct the fundamental truths that are there in the Bible. That's my advice and request. Take it for what it's worth. Remember Colossians 2:8. Let

00:45:11 no one take you captive to hollow and deceptive philosophy which depends on human tradition and the elemental forces of the world rather than on Christ. We need discernment. Michael Burns, I think I already quoted this one. Yes. Yes. A couple of recommendations, including, like I said, I don't go quite as far to the right as Darren does, but I think his book is definitely worth reading as well. I probably am a little bit more in Michael Burns's camp there, but Amen.

00:45:41 All right, so questions. We've got a few several minutes for questions. In theory, we have 20 minutes, but okay. Three guys. Okay. Actually, you raise your hand earlier. I'm gonna take you first and then I take these three guys. Go ahead. >> Well, the question is what's the most common worldview now? That's a good

00:46:11 question. I would say in Hollywood it would be pantheism. Okay. sort of the new age sort of Hinduism thing. I I would say pantheism, the idea that you are God, God is you, the whole universe is God and all that sort of stuff. So I'd say in in the media broadly, I would say, you know, pantheism, are you talking about America or you talking about outside of America? I

00:46:41 would say if you go to Africa, I think the Christian worldview is is really it still is the principal worldview except of course in that's south of certain line there you got that line you know because there's a lot of Islam in Africa. Uh America it's hard it's hard to answer that question. I would say we're definitely moving in the general direction of pantheism. Uh but I would say skepticism, atheism is another growing worldview. But I think in

00:47:12 America probably the basic assumptions of the Christian worldview probably remains the single plurality anyway. Either way, you know, it is what it is. So we just have to deal with it as it is. I mean, Christianity can thrive in a world where it's not the worldview. That's for sure. I mean, look at the early church. Talk about living in a world where where the Christian worldview was not the main one and I don't seem to do okay. You know my generation, oh we better protect Christianity with laws and all that kind

00:47:43 of stuff. Coercion is not a good approach generally. Okay. Yes. >> Yeah. Um, so I reach out to people and and I've been studying with a lot of people recently and something I've noticed is that like when I try to compel them something like they they resist it because like oh you know like everyone's got their own thing like like this is this isn't like like you have your way but I have my way so like you know this but I'm like it's like right here in the scriptures like

00:48:14 oh no like like well I just kind of have my own way of doing >> how would you encourage Uh >> asking questions is much better than telling. >> Yeah. Asking questions, asking them what their worldview is, why they believe that. Um yeah. Uh again, a little advertisement, but it's good. What What's the name of it? True, right, better. True, right? I can't remember. I don't know. Anyway, my book, it's it's orange. It's over there on the table. Uh, I it really I think does a pretty

00:48:46 good job of explaining different world views and I think if we're able to if we can get into their shoes, if you will, their shoes or whatever their uh Uggs or whatever, what are those goofy things you guys wear? The rubber things. >> Crocs. Get into their Crocs. All right. Um, yeah, I suggest doing that rather than getting into a debate. it you to you it doesn't seem like a debate. just asking them simp, you know, just telling them simple things that seem obvious.

00:49:18 But I'd say asking questions is almost always better. And if you look at Jesus, he did it all the time. Look in the book of John, how many times he asks questions, right? Um anyway, um listening more than talking is good. letting them, you know, honoring their ideas rather than just laughing at them off. I'm not saying you laugh them off, but um

00:49:48 again, in a modernist world, that approach, it actually worked a lot better than it does now. >> It really did. which is kind of sad for me because I'm kind of a Christian apologist guy and much of what I've used for a long time doesn't work as well as it used to. But that's the way it is. Uh so I'd say ask questions, talk about worldview, uh share your convictions, find common ground, that kind of stuff. Look in Acts 17 where he found he found common ground. You know, in Acts 17 he

00:50:18 says, "I see you have all these idols that his his audience was with him on that." By the way, they agreed with him on that. They also laughed at all that stuff. And he said, "But let me tell you about a God better than the God that you know about, the God in whom we live and move and have our being." So, he found common ground. I would say use Acts 17 as kind of a primer on how to do that. Of course, that was a speech and I'm suggesting asking questions and just giving a speech. Okay. Uh, next,

00:50:48 >> um, you mentioned a couple times that your postmodern values community individual. >> Yes. >> I wanted to ask you to explain more on that because I've seen and heard a lot like we're going more and more individual. We can isolate a lot more easily and feel okay about it, >> right? But your generation that's not what you want. That's kind of where you end up. I I don't have a really great answer to that honestly. But I I

00:51:18 um I think your generation, your ideal is to find community. You guys are just looking for community. Now you're look, you know, looking for love in all the wrong places. Looking for community perhaps in all the wrong places. I I I don't I don't know exactly how to answer that question. Oops. I was looking sorry looking at him answering. All right. So, I don't I don't have a great answer. I think you might have to help yourself answer your own question to be honest with you. But I would say

00:51:49 this I that as a general rule the the the newer generation has turned away from the hyper individualism that is just you know what's that the coke ad um anyway so I'm I'm struggling to answer your question but I would say that it is true the evidence seems to point in that direction in terms terms of how we deal with social media and become isolated

00:52:20 and we're in our own little rooms and stuff like that. But I'd say your generation actually seeks a community more than mine did and you know the the the rugged individualist. You guys don't really appreciate the rugged individualist as my generation did. So I agree with you. The evidence seems to say differently, but I don't I just don't think the evidence is telling the truth there. Okay. Um, I'm going to take a female and then

00:52:50 we'll get back to these guys. Go ahead. >> Um, I think I don't know kind of thing, but it's more of like the probably the idea that like the Bible itself was, you know, obviously you hear this a lot, especially in our generation. >> It was what >> and our generation hear a lot that it's like it was so old that like, you know, there's things that don't apply now. Um, how do you debunk that it was it's made by a perfect God, but it was written by imperfect people? Like, how do you have no skepticism that there

00:53:20 wasn't any involved when people were writing down or like they wrote what Jesus said, but everyone wasn't writing it in the moment, they were capping it later, >> right? um defending um um the the fact of infallibility in the Bible is it's a tricky it's a tricky thing in my generation you know they just it's infallible and the story is stop asking questions all right but I I think you just have to

00:53:51 have a you have to have your own nuance understanding for yourself individually for example do you know that we have almost none of the words of Jesus in the Bible Because what language did he speak? >> Aramaic. So right away it's a translation. >> And un unlike what my generation would probably assume these are not transcripts. All right. So Matthew is reconstructing um the the sermon on the mount is to some extent a reconstruction of what Matthew is doing. Here's the thing is

00:54:22 the Bible is inspired by God. all of it, every word. And the evidence for that is overwhelming from the prophecies that are fulfilled, from the historical accuracy, uh from the the miracles of Jesus, the fact that the guy who said that stuff was walking on water and raising Lazarus from the dead, the Bible's inspired by God. All right? But defending sort of a very very strict harsh kind of of literalism from

00:54:54 the Bible is something that um my generation would tend to do and please don't do that. However, there's the there's a feeling that it's going to be a slippery slope. Is it there are potential that it will be a slippery slope? Absolutely. There's a huge potential there. All right. I one way I like to think about it is, you know, Jesus was raised from the dead, you know, and if Jesus was raised from the dead, that answers a whole lot of questions. You know what I'm saying? Well, what about what about this and well, I don't know, but Jesus was raised

00:55:24 from the dead. Well, what about when Jesus comes back? And what about this thing going on over there in Ukraine? I don't know. Jesus was raised from the dead. You know what I'm saying? And I would say the Bible's inspired by God. And it flat out is. Oh my goodness, it is. All right. And so my generation would have a more simplistic view of that generally than yours would. Yours your generation's view on that would be a more accurate view on that. However, in going that direction, there is some danger.

00:55:54 And so the bottom line is Jesus was raised from the dead. Christianity is true. And if Jesus was killed on the cross, Muslims are wrong and they're going to hell. And if Jesus was raised from the dead, then you know that I mean, oh my goodness. So, we got to hold on to some of those simple truths. And they are flatout truths. And we have to, you know, one thing I I like to remind myself is some things I believe because of the evidence. Some things I believe because it's just in

00:56:24 the Bible. I believe that the Bible is inspired by God because of the evidence. I believe the universe was created because of the evidence. I believe we were specially created because of the evidence. All right? I believe that Jesus is the son of God and the Messiah because of the evidence. I believe is raised from the dead because of the evidence, but I have no evidence for heaven. And God being in control, uh, you know, I look around at the evidence and sometimes it seems that way, sometimes it doesn't. So, I like to

00:56:54 remind myself of the things that I know are true because of the evidence. But in the end, faith is belief in things that are not seen. And so as you grow up in Christ, you have to kind of find a way to do both things at the same time, which is to recognize the things that you know are true because they're just true. Jesus is the Messiah. Hello. Jesus died for our sins. Yeah. But uh the simplistic

00:57:24 um approach that the modernists would tend to take on the scriptures is not sufficient occasionally. And that can be scary, but it's true. All right, then. Yeah. Okay, I'll come back. Go ahead. >> What is that people? first things that you see that they just

00:57:56 don't want to accept but they're really ignorant or they do a bunch of methodics to get around. >> Uh that's a kind of a loaded question there. I I don't want to be careful answering that question. Uh so you're asking what are some of those issues that that essentially all these deconstructionists are kind of messing up right now? Is that what you're asking? >> I Who's they? I I don't know who they are. I I'm not very good at answering they questions. I' I'd rather answer we

00:58:27 questions. So, do you mean us or who's them? >> Other people in our Oh. Oh, atheists. Oh, I thought you were talk I thought we were criticizing kind of Christian things. That That's such That's such a vague question. I'm having a hard time answering that. Do you have a specific question? >> Could you make it maybe Christians like because there is this deconstruction going on. So maybe could you make it faithful Christians who you've seen who have deconstructed in the ways that it's gone to >> right I've se I've seen deconstruction

00:58:58 happen in ways that are a little bit concerning uh for questions about gender or how about you know even you know the whole thing marijuana the marijuana issue if you will all right it's that was bigger 10 years ago than now I think you guys have kind of sorted that one out mostly but um you know um I think gender issues are big. U definitely that's a that's a thing and social justice issues are a big thing. Um so I'm not sure what I'm

00:59:29 supposed to do on that. Honestly, do you want me to tell you what the correct perspective is or I I I hopefully I'm just giving you guys the tools to figure it out for yourself. Okay. So sorry I I gave a not very satisfactory answer to your question. Sorry about that. All right. Um I've been ignoring over here. One, two. Yeah, I already did one from you. Okay. One and then two. Go ahead. >> So you talked about how our roots are in the restoration movement. >> Absolutely.

00:59:59 >> When you look at the landscape of how the movement is doing with us being a part of it, how are you feeling about that right now? And is there any way that you'd like us to pivot? >> Okay, that's a great question. I would say if you take I I would the the stone cam balloon there's the Christian church and there's the church of Christ the Christian church is a little bit more ecumenical a little bit less judgmental a little bit more interested in unity not quite as doctrinally oriented but we

01:00:30 didn't come from there we came from the church of Christ in fact we've become more like the Christian church than the church of Christ I would say almost every way that we've corrected away from the church of Right. Almost all of those are good. Okay. Almost all of them. I I I would I do think though that um maybe some of the emphasis on Bible knowledge we've weakened in that a little bit. So that's a problem. Um okay, I might be losing your question a little bit. So

01:01:00 >> I essentially asked like how do you feel like we're doing a couple maybe like 200 years after started or so? >> Yeah. And would you like us to pivot in any direction? >> Um, >> you mean the ICO to pivot? >> I I think we could pivot towards having more grace. I think we could pivot towards um maybe although hold on to the truths, but maybe communicate with people that

01:01:32 don't agree with us. I think we could be more friendly to other groups even though we don't disagree because we can help them come to the truth more by having helpful conversations than by looking down on them. But that's that's my really honestly you guys are already move you guys are already taking us there. So I think the pivot I would suggest would be a pivot more to my my generation than to yours. And yeah, so I think the pivot to being more gracious, more willing to have discussions with

01:02:03 people that you don't agree with. But like I said, that's what the postmodern is going to do anyway. So that's good. All right. Um I I I know somebody over here. Yeah, go ahead. >> Uh I have one. I have two, but um so it's kind of specific. It's about speaking in tongues. >> Yeah. >> And I've read a blog of yours and you talked about it and you basically in the blog you talk about Acts and I think the Pentecost and the apostles being like the ones speaking in tongues and you

01:02:33 believe that like it was really for them and not really for us. >> Okay. >> And you can correct me if I'm wrong. I've read >> that's close but not exactly. >> And I because I like our believe in that never really seen anybody speaking in tones and I see a lot on like the internet of people speaking in tones and people looking down on them especially like people around me >> and I like have never felt like the urge to speak in tones but that is like scripturally like Paul talks about that

01:03:04 >> yeah okay >> and stuff like that so I want to know like you think what are good scriptures >> okay yeah so again the the modern perspective My generation is try to prove all those people how wrong they are and stuff like that. I have relatively little interest in proving they're wrong to be honest with you, but they're wrong in my opinion. Okay. So, so again, God can do whatever he wants to do and I'm not here to tell God what

01:03:34 to do. But my understanding is that the miraculous gifts uh Hebrews chapter 2 were given to essentially testify to the things that were being revealed at that time. Um and I my understanding biblically is these gifts were given by the laying on of hands of not by it's not just apostles but people had their hands laid on by apostles. And my understanding is that the principal purpose of these gifts were to to testify to the truth of

01:04:04 this gospel that was still in the process of being revealed at that time. All right? And and so however, when I talk to people who have all these religious experiences such as speaking in tongues and healings, I I'm not really that interested in proving them wrong. I don't think there's a lot of point to that. uh because it you can't disprove somebody's experience. Their experience is their experience. I do believe that you know they're not

01:04:34 actually speaking in actual languages was what the Bible talked about that is actually just gibberish. Uh you know and then some churches will actually have interpreters but the interpretation had absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with the thing that was being said. So, all kinds of stuff going on in these Pentecostal churches. But honestly, I think we have more to learn from Pentecostal churches than we have to correct them. And speaking of pivoting, how about pivoting towards a fuller recognition of the Holy Spirit in our lives? And by the way, our church

01:05:05 has moved a lot and we've moved in the right direction a lot in that area. But we we need to move more into the area of just acknowledging the Holy Spirit actually speaks to us, actually, you know, helps us in our prayers. But I I just the the kind of stuff that's going on in these Pentecostal churches, I I think most of it is just it's actually they're being deceived. Um but again, I don't my goal is not to

01:05:35 prove them wrong in those things. It's just not. I believe you could practice those things in good heaven. We had a a brother in in the San Diego church who died a few years ago, but he practiced speaking in tongues in private in his house. I said, "Amen, bro. Just please don't try to get people to do it because that's going to be a problem." In fact, he was actually mentioned as a possible elder. I'm sorry, but probably not. Somebody's practicing this. I think he

01:06:05 was deceived, honestly. But you know this sort of cathartic thing because speaking in tongues is very cathartic. It really is. Okay. Uh and so I don't know maybe it helped him. Uh anyway, my understanding of the Bible from Acts 8 and from Acts 2 and from Acts 10 and Acts 11 is this there was this spontaneous outpouring that happened at in Acts 2 and Acts 10.

01:06:35 That's not that's a one-off thing. Then there's the miraculous gifts that were given through the laying of hands of apostles. I believe God still works miracles today. It's just not he's working a miracle. Like it's not like you're the healer in the church and you're the tongue speaker in the church. I I think God still heals, but he just doesn't have healers walking around who've had an apostle lay their hands on them. Therefore, they have this miraculous power. So, that's that's my biblical stand. But I I don't I don't get too worried about that.

01:07:05 Unless they're trying to influence somebody in our church and get them because we had a situation in Merrced where this uh one of the our sisters there was somebody from a Pentecostal church that told her, "Oh, you haven't been speaking in tongues. You can't you can't be saved." Well, that's the problem. So, we need to inoculate our Christians against that >> because that is that's not true. It wasn't even true in Paul's day, never mind uh now. So, that's a quick answer. All right, we have we have two people

01:07:37 back here are getting sore arms. I'm gonna honor the fact that they're getting a sore arm by holding it up for so long. I've got only by the way about two more questions. Go ahead. >> So often times talking to other denominations or even like say they're curious about the faith. >> Yeah. >> They'll often ask like a question and then I'll respond accordingly like that. >> Great. That's exactly what you should do. >> But then they'll be like apathetic. Like I I feel like the encompassing world

01:08:08 right now about a lot of issues when it comes to the end result is like you know what in the end they go about >> Yeah. Okay. >> Love is the way it is and people live the way they are. And it's like especially when speaking to other denominations like yes it's true but like >> you're not it doesn't seem like you're passionate about your faith right I don't know how to like correct correct them like >> uh yeah there's going to be a lot of people you can't correct at all so you I

01:08:39 would just look for the ones that can be corrected >> um don't p don't throw your pearls before swine and some people like that cuz maybe that was you at one time some people in this room that's exactly the way you were at one point. But if somebody's not seeking and searching, I'd say, "Amen. Praise the Lord. Let's let's play uh basketball and hang out and you know, so I I I would be searching for those open doors as Paul said." And yeah, there's a lot of people that are just not looking for truth

01:09:10 right now. And if they're not, then probably we can't help them right now. So, I'd be looking for open people. Honestly, I I'm not saying ignore those people like they're of no value. I just say now is not the time for them. So, you know, maybe drop a little truism on them and kind of get give them something to think about and then they go from there. Uh I'm going to take your question maybe as the last one. By the way, uh just give an example. Uh a a good friend of mine, Joe Fields, um he

01:09:40 had a Mormon missionary come to his door. Good luck getting a Mormon missionary to have any kind of real discussion, but he just dropped a thought on the guy. He said, "I just want you to think about this." And after the guy finished his missionary thing, but you can't convert a somebody on the he came back and he called him and said, "Hey, I want to study the Bible with you." So, I would say, you know, dropping something just a food for thought on somebody like that and then just letting it go. Okay. Go ahead.

01:10:13 >> Yeah. >> They said, "What's in the Catholic church?" >> All right. Okay. Got it. >> Sure.

01:10:51 Okay. When they say the glory, what they're talking about is sacrament. >> That's that that they're using that that word, but what they're talking about is sacrament. In other words, they're telling you that salvation is found in the sacrament, and those sacraments are owned by the Catholic Church. Okay? And so that's sacramentalism. And the problem with sacramentalism is it replaces faith. So that's a problem.

01:11:22 Okay. Uh and so by the way, the idea of sacrament is in the Bible. There are two sacraments in the Bible. Arguably that would be baptism and the Lord's supper. However, our church has tended to deacramentalize the Lord's supper to an extent that I'm not comfortable with. Uh Zwingley, the Zwingley, who is the the guy in back in the reformation who said the B the

01:11:52 baptism is just a symbol. He's the first guy ever to say that. Okay. Well, that was so wrong. Oh my goodness. But he also said that the Lord's supper is only a symbol. In other words, it's a remembrance and a remembrance only. But the Bible says it's a participation. So that's one area. It's just it's a somebody asked about pivoting. Okay. A little little pivot you guys could help us with is our understanding of the Lord's supper. That the Lord's supper is

01:12:23 not just remembering, it's also participating. And in that case, I guess the Catholics are better than us in that area perhaps. Okay. But unfortunately, five of their seven sacraments aren't even in the Bible. And the one where you go to a priest to confess your sins since we have one mediator between us and God, that's the man Jesus Christ. That's a very problematic. And so, so basically what they're saying is the sacraments are found in the

01:12:53 church, which is true kind of, but they mean it's contained in this hierarchical structure that traces itself back to the early church known as the Roman Catholic Church. And by the way, they are true in this. They are a primitive church and we are not. That's true. But that the presumption is older is better. All right. Um, so basically what they're saying is salvation is is ob obtained through sacrament and that that excludes faith.

01:13:25 Not that Catholics say faith isn't important, but faith is not one of the sacraments. All right? And so, um, it goes back to Augustine. There's a kind of a long story there. Augustine, this is the, uh, late 4th century. He's got a church of unbelievers. like his entire church is virtually all unbelievers. That's what happened thanks to Constantine. And so basically, I guess he decided that if they just do this, this, and this, they're still good to go anyway without faith. So yeah, the glory is not

01:13:58 found in the Catholic Church. The full glory is found in Christ. Okay, that's it. We finished our time. Thanks for coming. [Applause]